Europe-China Relations: From Bad to Worse

Now they are considering wagering a boycott against French product.

They thing westerns don't get, imho, is that there is actually absolutely nothing holy about Tibet, it is politics and Tibet is of such vital importance to China, and Chinese are so raised and educated that there is no, even remote possibility that it will be given any kind of autonomy.

And I don't think Sarkozy really cares about Tibetan people or what. There are much much more people in Africa leading a much much more miserable life and their culture in danger of extinction, and none of the western countries are doing anything. So when they actually admit they are in this for their own interests, military and economical, stop acting so hypocritically like you are the only civilized man.

The "Wumao"(五-毛-党)(or Five-Jiao-party),Chinese government-hired internet commentator, can be seen everywhere! Their idola is: You can't blame me if there is someone who is viler than me, or, whose prat is clean?

On the contrary, I hope, I beg the world will do more to press the notorious CCP to restrict their atrocities.

It's interesting to note that there appears to be false facts residing in the wikipedia page regarding the amount of people RoC executes per year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_Republic_of_China

I made a little edit to show the controversy/coverup.

It's the Chinese government that should worry about damaging its interests over its treatment of Tibet. The Dai Lama has won the world's hearts and minds and the Chinese government has lost them. When will they realize that kindness is more powerful than aggression?

I find it amusing how people pretend to care about human rights, some of them already commented here. They don't' like China, they are afraid, its pretty simple, and they look for excuses, shallow and empty ones, to justify their xenophobia. There are no shortage of people suffering from disease, poverty, hunger, you name it, and much of it at the hands of the the self proclaimed saints, and most of the world's people knows this, and yet the Europeans are too busy awarding themselves human rights medals to realize it.

Sarkozy made a huge mistake, and he knows it, PR, or in Dalai's word "compassion", won't get you your Airbus deal back, Chinese airline industry isn't doing well and the goverment is spending hundreds of billion on railways, so China have nothing to lose from canceling the Airbus deals. To put it simply, China canceled the summit because CHina have nothing to lose, these pragmatic leaders who abandoned capitalism and then shook hands with George Bush wouldn't have canceled the summit if they had anything to gain from it. That's the most important point: China's sudden fit of anger toward the Europeans is because Europe no longer mattered to China, in today's economic climate, China has far less to lose than when trade with Europe was booming.

Let these human rights religious fanatic keep up their rhetoric, France will feel the consequences and I just hope your ideology or religion in human rights and empty PR campaigns will help you through it.

I keep hearing comments by Chinese that us "Westerners" just do not understand Chinese culture and how important issues like Tibet and Taiwan are to the Chinese people, etc. As a European I would like to make the opposite argument and point out that we Europeans feel that Chinese people just do not seem to understand our culture, and how important issues like respect and decency are to the European people. The Chinese government has none, and thus gets none in return.

And of course, I can guarantee you that if the Chinese government does not show us respect and behave with decency, the feelings of ALL the 500m people in the European Union will be extremely hurt.

The Chinese must realise by now that the West is stringing the Chinese along all these while. Europe is concern that the economic growth of China will hamper Europe's economic development, more so now in this economic atmosphere. The world have always been dictated to by the Western World. The West so called fair play and equality only applies when it benefitted the West. This is just a facade that the Europeans and the West is good at. The financial global powershift is underway and a new financial order will mature soon enough with the shift to the Far East. Yes China have issues, but it will be solved at China's own pace, not according to the schedule and the pace set by the west. France's attidue of fostering continued dissent and division in China does not help France, and on the long run, I believe the greater loss will be experienced by the French. China will turn east toward Russia and its Pan Pacific region, perhaps not as far as Australia, which is a wannabe US. Culturally we differ too much and the West dose not share the vision of the East. Cancelling the AirBus contract will show that the Chinese are angry, there is a saying in many culture, 'keep your friends close but your enemies even closer'. Friend or Foe that depends on the West.

pphukres, go ahead and cancel those Airbus orders. I'm sure the EU can think of some pretty damaging measures for China as well. Tit for tat.

China and EU need each other. Anyone ignores that is an idiot. A trade war bwt China and EU will be close to mutual destruction. The point is that does everything Sarkozy does and says represent EU? Or is EU responsible for everything Sarkozy says and does? Because obviously Sarkozy thinks so: he gave a cheap political shot to the Asian giant then hides behind EU shield, saying: " I am not Sarkozy. I am EU. You hit me back then you hit EU." China will selectively punish Sarkozy and France only, not EU. It gives ppl wrong impression because Sarkozy is currently holding EU rotating presidency. That's why China had to nix the EU-China summit because Sarkozy is the host.

The real question is: who gain in Sarkozy's diplomatic provocation and who are lossers? Sarkozy gains his personal ego and political stake from his party, for the moment, on the expenses/ the loss of normal Chinese, French and some EU businesses and citizens. Makes no mistake: Sarkozy knew what kind of negative consequences are, and China repreatedly warned this privately and publicly. But Sarko still went ahead. This tells what kind of person he is.

This is a typical example of how an opportunistic cheap politician gambles his career, in total disregard of potential hardship of people from both camps during this wordlwide recession.

jewillems, good idea to cancel those Airbus orders, but that will show that the Chinese people are angry, but personally I don't think the Chinese will do it, it will hurt not just France but Europe as a whole. Airbus is not solely French, but a European Consortium. With 1.3 Trillion USD in reserve in China and not forgetting the Chinese Soverign Funds, who do you think a tit-for-tat is going to hurt most, does France have that in its Reserve or better yet, does Europe? perhaps try to think before acting sometimes is prudent. I don't think cancelling Airbus is good as it will hurt Europe, but targetting the French business my be done by individuals globally, imgine, the Chinese Disporia around the world stops buying French products. Oh, I am sure the French will stop buying Chinese cookies, and small items made in China, imagine Citroen, Renault, Peugeot and Dassault product fail to sell to the Chinese Disporia, perhaps even Chanel, YSL to name a few. Alot of my friends in Europe and Asia have decided not to travel to Paris for their Holidays. To me that is very short sighted, but I do not think in the long run Europe will be what it was even if it does recover from this global recession, because China will have to change the way it does business with the West, now that it has accumulated substantial wealth. It will be less dependent on Europe and the West, now that it have build its own infrastructure modelled on the Americans and Europe. Looking inwards in now more crucial for China, and taking care of its own. So I think Europe is very much out on a limb on the long run. Russia too is looking East too, well, time will tell. Europe and USA have dominated the global finances and politics for a long time, and it has come to a catastrophic end for many individauls and companies, perhaps China and Russia will sieze this opportunity, but personally I do not think China will, as they have no ambition to be the worlds policeman and banker, they have enough issues of their own. China will take measures to protect its interest, and one of those will be to secure it's own financial strength before worrying how best to deal with France. By that time, events may have changed. As for the Dalai Lama, he has as much hope of securing autonomy for Tibet as much as Cosica being returned to Italy. He is an old man and he will not live for ever, perhaps Bhudda will ask for his return. It is a mere irritation to the Chinese, but like all irritation, it will vanish with the passing of time. Do not forget he is not barred from China, and nor will he be prevented from returning to China. Perhaps the Dalai Lama is breaking his own beliefs, all Bhuddist monks are suppose to give up worldy possessions as described in the Sutras, so where does governance of a people in Serfdom fits in? Perhaps Europe should conduct a survey on the poeple now in Tibet not the HAN Chinese but the actual Tibetans whether they would prefer the return of the old days...

iewgnem says: "China's sudden fit of anger toward the Europeans is because Europe no longer mattered to China, in today's economic climate, China has far less to lose than when trade with Europe was booming."

Nope, wrong on 2 accounts. Europe is not China's target but Sarkozy is. Sarkozy is targeted because he is a flip-flop wonk who has a record of bending to pressure from China. So he is seen as an easy target. The fact that he is the rotating president of the EU comes as a bonus. It's called hitting 2 birds with one stone. This is the prize Sarkozy pays, not for insulting China, but for being too conciliatory.

As I'm at it, just a word to those members of the five-cent party who are lurking around. Be careful of what you do because it will backfire. Manipulating the Internet to manufacture public opinion is a risky business. Those who are assisting you this time around may just as easily be turned against you when you're least expected.

pphukres, your reply is charming but again only semi-informed. Judging from the responses of people around me from different parts of Europe to Sarkozy meeting the Dalai Lama, everybody seems to be rather pleased that the French president finally "grew a pair" and stood up to Chinese bullying. When Sarkozy says he represents Europe, he is probably quite correct.

I want to stress two points. You mention the Chinese diaspora. Don't believe the propaganda hype. Not every person with a Chinese background in this world is a programmed robot by Beijing who will do their part to "defend the great motherland" etc. I know of quite a few Chinese people in this part of the world who are fed up with the Chinese government trying to ruin their reputation as peaceful hardworking people. Don't be fooled.

Second. Like I said. You can hit Europe, but in the end it will only be a slap in your own face. 18% of Chinese exports go to the European Union. 5% of European Union exports go to China. Do the math. Add to that the fact that if you hit companies such as Airbus or Carrefour, you also hit Chinese workers, and it is pretty obvious that the Chinese government might talk the talk but can't walk the walk. Bring it on.

@ 12 C.A. Yeung

Sarkozy is the target. However, you are dead wrong on the reasoning. Both Merkel and Brown met Dalai and haven't paid heavy prices was because Merkel didn't realise the importance of the matter while being the first one testing the water, while being a "traditional" Tibet supporter, nearly politically-dead Brown having immense pressure from Liberal Democrats to do it. He did it in a secretive way outside Downing st. with many Brits diplomats cleaning his ass after. In either case, there was no EU flag nowhere near the Dalai meetings and neither of them represented EU.

Looking at Sarko: he made public announcement to meet Dalai making it high profile, also as being the first EU president to do so with EU flag right behind Dalai's chair, and the meeting being held at sensitive timing of EU-China summit, given the April Olympic opening boycott incident... Criticising China's human rights recod is all right. Sarkozy just got the timing and the method completely wrong. In Dutch we call it "klootzak". These are just too much for China to take.

jewillems

Don't know which part of EU you are from ( ex-soviet bloc?) and who are the people around you. Sarkozy doesn't represent me and he is not my PM. If he looks for a fight under our names for his own ends, I , for one, will not pay his bill. Confronting China's commies? Yes, I do it whenever I have a proper chance. Sarko is just making a ridiculous move without thinking consequences. Most European household are equipped to the teeth Made-in-China. Yeah, right. A trade war with China: they will have mass unemployment; we will loss not only 5% export, PLUS we might have to add another 5% to the current inflation rate, and don't know when to dig ourselves out of this recession hole. A loss-loss situation!

Kamster1, look a bit closer to home.

kamster1,
I agree with you that Sarkozy has got the timing and the method wrong. But his main fault is that he lacks consistency in the way he deals with the Chinese. For example, he made a big fuss about Tibet and political prisoners in China prior to the Olympic Games, to the extent of threatening to boycott the opening ceremony. But eventually he turned up at the ceremony as if nothing had happened. The same goes with his previous meeting with the Dalai Lama. Not to be able to stand the ground is seen as a major weakness in Chinese diplomacy. It sends a completely wrong signal and makes the Chinese government believes that if it goes head on with Sarkozy, he'll just bend, like he did before.
As for Brown, he is even worse. He betrayed Tibet at the most inconvenient time, in late October, just 2 days prior to the last crucial China-Tibet talk. As a result, China hardens her position on the Tibetan issue. Once again a conciliatory flip flop attitude backfired.
If you Europeans are not getting your acts together, I'm afraid we are going to see yet another massive scale of onslaught against innocent lives. Here we are talking about the mutation of a human rights issue into one that will seriously threaten regional security.

jewillems, I think you are missing the point and you are very focused on the Chinese targetting French business. I don't disagree with you that not all people around the world with Chinese Ethnicity will stop buying French Products, there are alot of people who may be of Chinese Ethnicity nd have no relation or allegiance to China, however there are alot of Chinese Ethnic around the world still feels for the motherland, you will find that the Chinese are very Nationalistic when the time to be nationalistic comes. There is much for you to learns about the Chinese people. My belief at this stage is that the Chinese Govt. will not target the French nor Europe, they are unhappy about the meeting that Sarkosy has with the Dalai Lama, they will target and is targetting Sarkosy because he has turn the meeting with the Dalai Lama into a media circus and allowing the Dalai Lama to openely criticise the Chinese Govt. If your figures are base on previous trade, be also aware that the exports to Europe is also alot less than what it was, you mentioned 18%, now it will be even less with the poor economy and not many people or firms in Europe buying Chinese Products. The Chinese in China are experincing factories closing and people losing their jobs from these factories. The Chinese Govt. knows that in the short term there is no chance of Europe or France for that matter will come out of this recession and resume their imports from China. The Chinese Govt. will be taking steps to prevent unrest in China and looking inward to rebuild. If they do cancel the Airbus orders, it will be a case of the downturn in Air Travellers around the world and not so many planes are needed, try not to read too much into it, unless the orders goes to Boeing, then EU will know that China is 'very, very angry', but I don't think that will happen. They will not be too concern with the French or Europeans for the moment, they do not want to be drawn into the mess that Europe and the US has with Afghanistan; Pakistan; the Middle East and all the havoc that the West have created and the current financil crisis. They have problems of their own festering at home with the unemployed. Their primary objection is to the Frech President and I stress the French President is that he has given a platform to someone that China sees as a splittist. China considers the Dalai Lama an opportunist and a chameleon that will adapt to a situation for his own gain. There is no dispute within Europe stating that Tibet is an Integral Part of China, yet there are calls for 'Independence' (which is no longer requested by the Dalai Lama) and more 'Meaningful Autonomy'. Meaning one quarter of China will come under the control of the Tibetan Autonomous Government. The Chinese Central Government will pay for maintenance and development on the region but will have no say in the Governing of the Region, is that possible in France or any countries in the European Union? The Dalai Lama left China in the 1950's he has not been part of the Autonomous Regional Govt. governing since he fled to India, because of his abscence from that region, the Chinese does not see nor is willing to negotiate a return of the Dalai Lama as the spiritual head of the Tibetans, what they are prepared to negotiate is how he can spend the rest of his days in China, this of course is not good enough for the Dalai Lama. Tibet is self autonomous, be it that the local govt. takes its 'orders' from Beijing. Does other province in France not take 'orders' from Paris? If that is the case why is Sarkosy promoting a splittist? Is this not double standard? To make it very simple, Tibet was 'carved out' during the Great Game, with the British Promoting the idea that Tibet is an independent country based on the fact that Britain have separate treaties with the Dalai Lama's predecessor, incidentally the British no longer sees that Tibet as a separate part from China. Times have changed and there are elements currently in the West rightly or wrongly imagined Tibet to be what it never was, 'Shangrila', a vision promoted by Hollywood. During the 1950's Tibet was feudealistic and most of the population was starving, China did not invade Tibet in the 1950's, would you call sending troop to Paris or Strabourg by Paris and Invasion? you see, depending on how you view the situation, China is always in the wrong according the the Western media's perception. Have you wondered how the Chinese in China view it? I am just looking at it from an impartial stand point, a military intervention was needed to put an end to feudalism in Tibet and bring order to the region. In March 2008, when some of the Tibetans ran riot in Lahsa, Tibet, the troops move in after 24hours of continuous violence, and a few people got killed, did Paris not put down rioting last year when the restless youths of Paris ran riot, in Paris it is called a riot, in Tibet, is it call a govt. oppression and suppresing the freedom of speech. I suppose what happend in Greece yesterday was a riot, and not the suppression and oppression of freedom of speech. This military intervention in the 1950's of course is not acceptable to Britain at the time and also the U.S. who were quite concern with Communism spreading, and that their main concern was with the close relationship between the Chinese Communist and Stalin and what was the Soviet Union. This is now part of history. History is always written by the victor and it may not always reflect the truth. Democracy is what the west practice, and China practise Communism with a Capitalistic tone, what do you think? Of course China is BAD and must be confronted. try to see it from a Chinese prespective. Of course the righteous west is always right, and I suppose that is why we have the mess with the Islamist Radicals and funnily enough I don't see Al-Qaeda threating to blow up Beijing or fly a couple of planes into Beijing Central, perhaps we should ask why?

jewillems Says:
"... And of course, I can guarantee you that if the Chinese government does not show us respect and behave with decency, the feelings of ALL the 500m people in the European Union will be extremely hurt ..."

The world sure learned about European's "respect" and "decency" when Olympics torch passing throught the streets of Paris and London. Do we also need to mention European's collective guilt on colonism and imperilism?

I want everyone here to know a truth: Many of those "Chinese patriots" who are attacking, upseting, lying, fouling and stiring here are not common Chinese people, they are government-hired Five-Jiao-Party who are selling their conscience and soul to the CCP for 50 cents RMB per comment. They can't represent Chinese citizens. Contrarily, they are hated by all in China! So I hope you wouldn't be serious for their bullshit, lest you would waste your time.

There is an opinion in Europe, especially among former Soviet bloc country, that China is the new nazi party of the East and Tibetans are the new Jews of the East. If they do not confront the new nazi of the East right now, they might have to face China in world war III. Being President of European Union, Sarkosy cannot avoid meeting DL whether he likes it or not. In Chinese prospective in trying to isolate DL diplomatically, Sarkosy is a fair target because he is current President of European Union. Wait until Sarkosy steps down from the job of President of European Union. He will find an excuse to go to China to kiss ass in order to rescue French business interest. That is how Western politicians prostitute themselves and their so-called principle. Any talk of human right and democracy is crap. It is power politics. If DL got isolated diplomatically world wide, his independent movement is dead. He knows it. However, I still do not understand how he thinks he can muscle control of 25% of landmass from China by prostituting himself to the Western power. This is not 1908. The proposal he made to the Chinese government reminiscent of the peace treaty Britain presented to China after the opium war. Is DL really so naive or is he a real idiot.

Power politics? It's gotta be the only politics exists in the world, now and ever. Substantially, any politics other than this one?
To many Chinese, the Tibetan issue is not so racial or radical that only some minor nationalists really care about.
Posit Tibet is isolated, so what? Dalai can revive his old time theocratic regime? So you guys think Dalai can bring true benifits to Tibetan, by teaching them some big words like peace, human right, and then???
Dalai's clique actually was the likes of Communists but arming with Buddhism not Communism. If the thing goes like this, let's call it renaissance of medievil thearchy

I want everyone here to know a truth: Many of those "Chinese patriots" who are attacking, upsetting, lying, fouling and stirring here are not common Chinese people, they are CCP-hired Five-Jiao-Party who are selling their conscience and soul for 50 cents RMB per comment. They can't represent Chinese citizens. Contrarily, they are hated by all in China! So I hope you wouldn't be serious for their entangling and provocation with impoliteness and conspiracy theories, lest you would be fooled and wasting your time.

“50 cents RMB per comment” really dirt cheap labor.
Ladies and gentlemen, another undeniable evidence of the "slave labor" in China.
Arise, Five-Jiao-Party! Arise, ye who refuse to be slaves!

Thanks conscienceinchina. Points taken.

john2008obama: 50 cent RMB per comment is not dirt cheap labour. It's in fact rather good money, particularly for some poor college students. They can easily earn up to 10 yuan an hour. 10 yuan will buy them a good healthy lunch in most cities in China. That's more or less equivalent to the salary of a lower middle-class worker.

Judging by the standard of writing at this blog, I would say that 50 cent RMB per comment is far too expansive.