Those Bronze Heads: Truth and Fiction

http://www.culturekiosque.com/art/news/baghdadmuseum.html

I totally understand what elegant feel. Must be the same as the Germans when they heard Holocaust was fabricated.

I kind of surprised it took this long for you to sneak in this research result while you have all the BBCs, CNNs or whatever gismo you have.

The link I posted above says enough, found similarities? That is not far from now, the bad blood never die, they just mutate. Except this time, you have maxim gun, we have it too.

wow. is it true? cute Simon even starts denying this? This is something I actually waiting for... I always think one day Time.Org will definitely down to this level. No evidence? what evidences were Simon expecting when he started this little cute research? Eyewitness? or the pictures taken while those Franco and British robbers cutting off those heads and setting up the flames? lol.

If Simon is a German, he definitely can not find evidences of the Holocaust
If Simon is a Japanese, he definitely can not find evidences of the Nanking 1937.
If Simon is a

Interesting downplaying of the looting by mentioning the Chinese looted as well somehow diminishes the hypocrisy of auctioning off the relics?

Maybe the history is a century ago the British and French invaders, incidentally were in the crime site, and incidentally picked the chopped bronze heads, and Simon today incidentally sit in front of his Blog, try to lecture history again!

The bottom line is and also a fact, all the discovered bronze heads ends in the civilised Western country, without legal ownership records.

I wonder how many stolen treasures in the Forbidden City have ownership records. But the law is clear. Everything belongs to the Chinese government ... Erh... the Chinese Communist Party, rather.

And I think this Chinese "expert" agrees with Simon that the bronze heads are worthless, but priceless in China.

http://www.dfdaily.com/node2/node31/node262/userobject1ai155389.shtml

French was not in receipt of stolen goods in the spirit of 俯卧撑，躲猫猫 ? That's plagiarism. TIME should apologize to China for copying their technique.

Banal nationalism blah blah blah.
I guess they truly belong to those Jesuits or to the Manchu rulers of the Qing Dynasty. I don't see why the Han Chinese or the CCP can lay any "legal" claim. Funny that the "Chinese people's feelings are hurt" because of these things while China continues mass piracy of Western movies and music--our "art". It's all subjective and a matter of opinion, I suppose.

Did anyone mentioned that the Qing Dynasty declared war on the British and France and that caused the war during which Yuanmingyuanthe was sacked ? I doubt any Chinese would ever admit that, especially it is in the official history of China.

And talking about sacking... Chinese have this love of these Qing Dynasty artifacts purchased from France, they must love the Qings very much. The Qing were the one that sack Yangzhou when they invaded China, and murdered one third of the population of Yangzhou. That probably only a few hundred thousand people. Chinese people love Qing for it because that was only an insignificant fraction of the Chinese population.

France and Britain invaded China back in those days of course. And Yuanmingyuan was built by the most military successful emperor of China, Kangxi. He doubled Chinese territory from what was inherited from the Ming Dynasty. This is, of course for the benefit of China, and should not be called invasion. Just asked the people displaced by the Qings, and they would certainly agree.

moconn: It is not funny that "Chinese people's feelings are hurt". Just see what Christie is getting - trouble from the Chinese government. And if the Chinese people say it is legal, it is. If not, they can always be written in to a Chinese law. Western movies and music are not art. Only French made second class bronze clothe hangars are. And if the Chinese wants to pay millions for something you can get at any European flea market for a few Euros, so what.

I love to see all this love of European culture by the Chinese youth. Yuanmingyuan itself was designed by Europeans, plagiarizing European palace designs (the source of all the piracy ?). The animal heads were made in France by French artisans, for a French designed water fountain. No wonder it is considered a Chinese treasure.

I bet that's why all these old buildings in Beijing, built long before Yuangmingyuan, with a lot Chinese arts and crafts, were all torn down to be replaced by western designed glass and steel buildings. This love of the Chinese culture is really impressive.

Comparing the volume of outcry for these animal heads with that happened when millions of square miles of land deeded to Russian by the CCP in North East China, I can see how valuable these animal heads are to the Chinese. Landed deeded to Russia can be replaced by expansion of Chinese territories Kangxi style, while these animal heads were maded by dead French artisans and cannot be replaced.

johnsmith9876

Declaring war didn't justify anything.

Only a tiny part of Yuanmingyuan was designed by the French.

The Zodiac heads now are just trigger of the whole stuff. Nobody really cares what the real value is.

Whatever Chinese did to their own culture does not justify robbery.

moconn:

Was William, the conqueror, king of England? Was James VI of Scotland king of England?

"But the Frenchmen and Flemings were filled with a lust for destruction: they rushed in a howling mob down the streets and through the houses, snatching up everything that glittered and destroying whatever they could not carry, pausing only to murder or to rape, or to break open the wine-cellars. Neither monasteries nor churches nor libraries were spared. In St Sophia itself drunken soldiers could be seen tearing down the silken hangings and pulling the silver iconostasis to pieces, while sacred books and icons were trampled under foot. " --(from wikipedia)

Frenchmen are really good at this kind of stuff, in Constantinople and Beijing. Excellent people! Most civilized of all!

triciatakanawa: declaring war, especially being the first party to do so, and start attacking the embassies, means you want to pick a fight, and a fight you've got. If you loose, don't blame the other party because you've asked for it. And I thought China was a big country and know what it was doing. Probably not. It is not your enemies responsibility if you were foolish.

Vietnam started to encroach on Chinese territories and got beaten too. Does that mean China is responsible for invading Vietnam ? Probably, using your argument.

What Chinese did to their culture was no justification for robbery. But attacking the embassies was. And mangling your own heritage and then ask others to respect it is simply hypocrisy. I just wonder how these animal heads would fare during the Class Struggles, Anti-right, Anti-capitalism, Cultural Revolution and all other class and power struggles, when much more valuable real Chinese and Tibetan treasures were destroyed. May be the Enghlish and French did China a favor by preserving China's cultural heritage by taking them out of Chinese destruction.

The buyer of these heads was reported to be Cai Mingchao of Xiamen. He declared he won't pay. That means these heads will be on the market again. Another opportunity for the Chinese to raise their displeasure and get angry at the French. I expect another good show. I guess Christie will ask for deposits, or larger deposits, this time.

This is good. This tells the world what it means to do business with Chinese.

Here is an information I found which could be of interrest regarding this topic. One question is: were those statues really looted by the french and english in 1860, or by local chinese at this time or latter, were they stolen or sold? In Wikipedia article about the old summer palace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Summer_Palace), here is what was written until the 22nd of February 2009:
" One consolation for the Chinese was that the British and French looters preferred porcelain (much of which still graces English and French country houses) while neglecting bronze vessels prized locally for cooking and burial in tombs. Many such treasures dated back to the [[Shang Dynasty|Shang]], [[Zhou Dynasty|Zhou]] and [[Han Dynasty|Han]] dynasties and were up to 3,600 years old. "

But this day, a mysterious user Clee7903 (de-registered since then) has added the following sentence:
" A specific example was looting of the Zodiac fountain with its twelve bronze animal heads were some of the most notable artifacts, the whereabouts of up to five bronze heads are still missing with the remaining four in Chinese museums and three in private European collection. "

The word "example" was latter replaced with "exception".

I think we have here a manipulation of information.

i wonder where this bandit johnsmith9876 was born. I blame Mr Cai's for his "unlawful" individual act but i despise this bandit's comments. European countries have make use of their more advanced technology to unlawfully conquered and looted the rest of the world in the past. Now they talk to the rest of the world using LAWS and forgave themselves for past evil deeds they have made. If you bought a LV bag and was "took away" by a french, does that means it's not a robbery?? Worst case a few weeks later you found your LV bag on auction at ebay. Is this legal?? That's what bothering Mr Cai. He decided to take it back unlawfully and everyone points their finger and called him a thief. Well this is indeed very sad.

Westerns will always raise their voices when chinese done something. Well westerns always have a good reputation as racists. When they needs money they'll remember who to contact. Westerns have set their rules and regulations in the past inorder to "earn" from others as well as making colonies. They consider themselves more superior than others. What makes them think so? Perhaps there's something wrong with their cultures. Loves to travel and takes whatever they wants. Creating "opportunities" for others to disturb embassy and declare that's the start of their F.O.C. shopping holiday.

So please forgive those ignorant chinese for "disturbing" embassies. Well maybe the story goes like this, westerns set their rules and regulations and chinese civillians are not aware of that. Maybe they forgot to print in chinese wordings. Don't expect chinese at that time to read english. So please forgive them.

I see many embassies were being disturbed nowadays but i don't see them declaring war. Well maybe nowadays they can afford to buy things and they do not need F.O.C shopping holiday anymore. Life must be good for them now.

I think Mr Cai's act have taught the rest of the olded days bandits a very good lesson. Although this is not being encourage. So always remember that when "you" done something evil and "someone" who remembers it will certainly get it back from you. Don't blame "someone" for this. "You" are the one who's asking for it.

I wonder if the french treasures the Arc de Triomphe?? Built particularly for those who fought during the Napoleonic Wars. Does Napoleon bring wealths and fames to the french after his fatal defeat at waterloo? Presently the french treasures the Arc de Triomphe as it belongs to them. Not because of Napoleon. So do not blame "Chinese people's feelings are hurt". If parts of the Arc de Triomphe was moved to Germany by Mr Hitler when he "visited" paris, will the french feel hurt. Of course they will feel hurt because something belongs to them are taken away unlawfully and not because they love Napoleon's past victories. Chinese do not love Qing nowadays but felt robbed for those bronze heads they paid for and owned.

Simon Elegant has down to another level!
This time, he is the defense lawyer of the thieves!
He's got himself a great job in this global economic downturn ... we do need more lawyers as crime rate is likely to rise in such time.
So, why don't Simon Elegant quit his job in Beijing and more back to his grand father's land and get a lawyer's licence?