Tiananmen Reflections

If Zhao succeeded, what kind of compromise he had with the students and what kind of country China could be 20 years later?
My bet of the outcome could be India at best or follow the path of Soviet Union/Soberia.

This is the article I can agree on.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/30/opinion.gao/index.html

I had read all of them. Those are emotional articles. I am a Chinese born after 1980. In mainland China people call us "the post 80".

Honestly, I do not know who to trust on the story of Tiananmen Crackdown. Chinese government of course is good at lying; and the Western media is good at reporting half truth. Stories told by people who suffered from the event contain too much personal emotion and other motives.

Anyway, I still have admiration for those students. I think I would be one of them if I was born 20 years earlier.

No matter what, if a government dealt with its unarmed civilians by weapon, it would be very clear that what kind of government it is.

I do not like Wu'er Kaixi. He escaped with the donated money and left others to die. Could CNN or TIME Magazine please ask Wu'er Kaixi where the money went? He owes the lives of hundreds of others because they listened to him (certainly to that bitch Cai Ling as well) to stay put though the army was coming by truck loads. Doesn't he feel any torment that his mistakes and missteps caused hundreds of lives?

天下是邓大人们打下的，你小子算个什么?

If Zhao succeeded, there wouldn't be the corruption Chins is now not facing. There wouldn't be any economic sanction against China for a decade, and the Chinese economy would be booming way pass US by year 2000.

People were saying that the student demonstration were influenced by foreign powers. There were cases of student movements in China influenced by foreign powers. During 1920's to 1940's, there was a student and intellectual group started in China, later they joint an international organization and start receiving financial aid from an unnamed foreign country. This student/intellectual group changed from a patriotic movement to a movement to overthrow the current government of China. This show how dangerous foreign financial aid is to Chinese student movements. Therefore all foreign aids should be suspect. Just think about the money Hong Kong people gave to the Sichuan earthquake. The reconstruction program for the earthquake quickly became a corruption, influence peddling movement.

"if a government dealt with its unarmed civilians by weapon, it would be very clear that what kind of government it is."... and lies about it, and suppresses any information about this armed mass murder with mechanized troops to reach its people, and releases misinformation ad nauseum to confuse, threaten, and mislead its own people..

It is the greatest government China has, and will ever see...

chinesekiddo:
Don't kid yourself. In the 80+, US national guards opened fire on Campus and killed 5 students protesting Vietnam war. Korean soldiers killed hundreds of unarmed students and civilians suspicious of being communist spies. During Korean war, US air force bombed and killed thousands of unarmed Korean refugees on purpose when they were forced to retreat from the border with China.So far, not one person had been held responsible for those crime against humanity.
Fighting corruption is an on-going and never ending endeavour. Should the student succeed, a new form of corruption would have replaced the old one. Look at the corruption in Taiwan, US, and especially India. After 65 years of so-called democracy, India is still divided between social classes, religion and ethics groups. Secular and religious violence had become daily occurance. What could China be if she followed the road of India.
I remembered the interiew of 柴玲 by a US media in her domintory after the protest had died down and most students had left. She was crying about what might happen to her after the incident passed.秋後萛帳 was the word she used. Shortly afterward, she went forward to revitalize the hunger strike. The rest was history.
In 1989, China was experiencing hyper-inflation. Pensioners was complaining that their pension could not even buy enough food for themselves and most people could not afford a pair of shoes. In the background, much debate went on whether the reform should be turned back because thousands of workers laid off from state owned enterprise were left without pensions and income. Most people thought that corruption was the cause of their problems. As history taught us, that was the stage that every planned economy must go through to become a market economy. At the same time, US was using the student protest in China to show the Soviet Union what could happen to them if they did not put forth political reform. They took the bait and the rest was history. It was highly likely that China could have fallen apart as the Soviet Union did should she reformed the political system before she was ready. Xinjing and Tibet might become a killing field if separatist succeeded. Don't be a fool to stand in front of a firing line. 柴玲 is alive and doing very well as an investment consultant in New York. She had yet shown her face in any meeting or made any comment about June 4, 1989. 王丹 is still bearing all the burden of the student movement.吾爾開希 is married into a wealthy Taiwanese family and hosts his own radio talk show in Taiwan. Make your own judgement. Who do you want to be:柴玲 or 王丹.

I was listening to BBC then, though not getting the full picture of what was actually going on in those traumatic days in June 1989.

If I am a democrat, I would strongly condemn the heinous massacre and the unspeakable crime against humanity.
If I am a communist, I would invariably support the party's stern action to uphold its legitimacy and integrity.
Since I am neither, I prefer to listen to what others have to say.
(btt1943)

真是可笑，几个还需要父母差屁股的孩子，只是玩弄自己的感情来让政府达到西方国家所谓的民主。请问20出头的孩子，你们那时候懂得什么是民主吗？说白了，就是你们想要自由算了以此可以随心所欲做你们想要做的。因为你没的脑子正是处于叛逆的时期茁壮成长。自由，自由，你就可以无视自律。就是你们这帮感情用事的人，给那些流氓，街上的下混混，想搞垮中国的西方势力开门进来，在后面支撑你们。 你们这些感情用事的大学生傻到到好可爱。民主到好天真。被人家利用则觉得自己好伟大。

政府不是好多次告诉过你们叫你们离开吗。政府不是警告好多次告诉过你们叫你们不要出去吗在那天晚上。为什么你么还是去了。你们也清楚知道是谁叫你们那晚上去。因为这些人只有一个目的，推翻政府，达到你们所谓的民主，不是民主，是你们要随心所欲。不要打着民主的旗帜来欺骗民众。算了吧。摸摸你们的娘心。

我看这场悲剧的责任应归功于你们这些大学生。是你们害得。现在还有这脸怪别人。看看这些什么柴玲 ， 王丹，吾爾開希。当晚你们去了哪里。你们怎么没有死一个。

我们有好多人在国外有看过那些关于6 4的录像。你们觉得好像政府把你们怎么了。但我们10个就有10个觉得这些学生好幼稚，好傻。尤其是那个什么蔡琳的。哭什么哭的。丢死人了。简直是感情用事的毛丫头。何谈民主？何谈民主？何谈民主？何谈民主？可笑。

问问她什么是民主？我想她也未必知道？现在西方国家的民主都快死掉了。就别把那个死系统弄来中国。

本身一群不懂事的孩子，那个照紫阳还去接见这帮人。我看这个照紫阳也是一个感情用事的人。怎们能当一个国家领导人。下台了也好。真真的英雄想做大事怎敢感情用事。

那些有些香港歌星明星，台上是人，台下是鬼的东西，他们也不懂的民主，只懂自由，目的也是想随性所欲，吸毒，等等。当然他们会支持了。

因为都是同一船上的。

This is the article I also can agree on.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/30/opinion.gao/index.html

民主国家那样好，就永世留在那好了。真想不通这些人又急着要回来。
有时候不要太天真。不一样的国情讲不一样的话。不要总是照猫画虎。有的人能编程。有的人简直不行。

"Don't kid yourself. In the 80+, US national guards opened fire on Campus and killed 5 students protesting Vietnam war."

80+'s Vietnam war ? Must be Chinese history lessons.
It was late 60's, at Kan State.

The US government should really learn from the Chinese government how to keep the memories fresh about these things. The US government should have arrested all those leading the protest, throw them in jail for a long, long time, so that when they are released, they would be of news interest and remind people of the incident.

Secondly, the US government should have stopped any media for reporting on the incident for decades, if not centuries, so that if any one mention anything about the incident, it become news worthy.

The US government should also forbid Kan State to have classes on the anniversary of such incidences forever, so that for generations of students of Kan State will ask the question, every year, "Why do we have a week's holiday now ?", and they will be reminded of the incident.

The US government should also block all websites with any information on the incident, so that everyone has to remember what are the forbidden words, and will, therefore, remember, everyday, why they have to know about those forbidden words, or numbers.

The US government should also deny any death in the incident so that the friends and families of the victims will try to get the government to change its mind every year.

The US government should also forbid the friends and families of the victims from meeting foreigners, or simply kick them out of Kansas City, every year, just to remind them of such brutality.

See, the US government need to learn a lot from the Chinese government.

"民主国家那样好，就永世留在那好了。真想不通这些人又急着要回来。"

Another proof that China should not have democracy. Chinese people just cannot stand having freedom and rights, and have to escape and get back to what Jackie Chan wants - Control !!!

Reminds me of a scene in a movie: Chickens were cooped up in some old, filthy, crowded, wooden cages. They were really suffering and wanted change. Then the chicken farmer trained a host on the cages, and blasted the cages with water, cleaned out the cages a bit. The chickens were so glad that there was such great improvement to their living space, they praised the chicken farmer for looking after them so well. And they are still in a crowded wooden chicken cages. Yep, happy chickens in cages... All you need to do is to ensure their lives get real bad, and blast them with some water, and they will be grateful, forever.

what's approve u think democracy is good systems. lookt at currently Encomic situation.

only can say that johnsmith9876, you are blind, yet you can not see.

because your heart already fix that democracy system is good.no point you can listen othersd.

but by history, it will approve who is right. or untill after you die, u will know who is behind the democracy. then you will scold yourselsf, too stuipde. too late.

事实上， 我觉得你在你喜爱的民主国家活得应该更加窝囊。

我也没看他们把你抬举的多高呀。

你应该是活的更加痛苦吧在那里连鸡笼都不如的地方， 所以有急着想回来这个“鸡笼里”。

最好别回来，不够自由。 那你就在那个民主国家一生痛苦吧。

我看你就是想回，就是回不了。然后在这写一些发泄的评论。

Why Did June Fourth Movement Fail? 鹿死谁手? 六四运动失败的原因?

By: Jordan C. Fan, 范楚漳, Prophet of Environment.

China has the longest continuous history of all ancient civilizations in this world. Among all Chinese treasures, none was more precious than our history books. Historians have always held the highest status in our society and honor by all people even more so than kings and emperors. We were, in fact, much revered by all those emperors and leaders of China.

As the world foremost Prophet, historian, and theologian who is also clairvoyant, I will attempt to write this very controversial yet sensitive historical event. At the same time, I will also try to convey the messages from those involved, either Supernatural, living or deceased. May their spirits rest in peace!

鹿死谁手？ 的答案是 "鹿死神手"！是天意, or intentions of Heaven.

Quite obviously, the "Deer's Death" 64 鹿死 was caused by Environmental changes as they have always been since the beginning of our Universe. Democracy or Capitalism which are the major forces in the destruction of the Environment were the goals of the June Fourth Movement. These political ideologies allow human to uncontrollably consume all our natural resources and freely destroy the Environment unchecked with blessing from such governments as the United States of America. When the Environment and wilderness deteriorate, its wildlife will die or "Deer Death" will occur. In this case, the people so "Dear" to us must also die because of their misinterpretation of "freedom." It is the law of nature which no one can change. Death must be mourned but it doesn't necessary mean the Movement was correct.

六四运动 64 "June Fourth Movement" as its name implied was a "copy cat" or "copy deer" of the much more successful 五四运动 54 "May Fourth Movement." From its appearance, the May Fourth Movement or New Cultural Movement seem to favor the acceptance of Western or foreign ideas especially those in making changes to our traditional Chinese culture, literature, sciences and technology but in reality its purpose was to free China from the control of the foreign powers and their unfair treaties with China at that time. Therefore, the June Fourth Movement has ironically threaten to undo the May Fourth Movement and must be stopped. Millions of soldiers were dead or wounded while defending China and Korea from the American aggression during the Korean War. Who will answer to them if the June Fourth Movement was successful. That June Fourth Movement was against their efforts making their death and suffering in vain.

The idea June Fourth Movement was also derived from the democratic movement in the Soviet Union (CCCP) which seem to have given more freedom to the Soviet people. In fact, history has later proven that such movements in the CCCP have caused the disintegration of the Soviet Union, economic downturn and immense suffering of their people. It might even have resulted in the invasion of Russia by its enemy the United States, World War III, dangerous nuclear confrontation and destruction of all mankind.

The most important lesson to be learned from this historical episode was the same lesson which all our Chinese ancestors had taught us - PATIENCE or the lack of it. 忍耐. Chinese should wait for the outcome of the Soviet Movement then initiate any changes in China.

One of the major byproduct of conversion from communism to democracy is the emergence of the "Russian Mafia." In other words, the control of a nation by the mobs, gangs and organized crime elements which will create great damage to their people, physically and morally. Basically most countries nowadays must always have to choose from being controlled by very strong centralized governments or criminal organized crime gangs to provide true stability and at the same time freedom from foreign control. Democracy could only work in those rare occasions in highly educated, organized and well established small countries with little population.

In the case of the United States of America, democracy has never given stability to its people. The U. S. survives basically on constant expansion westward to destroy the Environment, aggression by starting wars and instability aboard, depletion of world's natural resources to stimulate industry, and lost of freedom & also suffering of people of other nations. Democracy American style is basically an attempt for a small minority group to dictate the whole population. Similar to what is happening today in the Black controlled United States.

I can easily present many dozens more reasons why the June Fourth Movement had failed. That discussion will be the topics of subsequent posts and replies which will follow this original thread. The most important cause of their failure was that they have chosen unwisely the wrong and unlucky date June Fourth for their continuing 天安门 Tiananmen Square demonstration. While May Fourth means 无死, 無死 "No Death" in Chinese, June Fourth means 鹿死 or 禄死 means " Political Suicide"!

A strong centralized government is necessary for China to remain united. Nothing is more important to this planet than an united China.