A Long, Slow Endgame

Liam,

That conclusion would put you in the optimistic camp. The domestic apathy to censorship is bewildering; the lack of empathy for compatriot suffering is also a major obstacle for concentrating opposition momentum.

The realism of the Oxford History Faculty would also point out that cultural and historic influences play a major part in shaping domestic politics. No tradition or collective experience of democracy or liberty exists in China, but for unhappy turbulent times and a few years of openness in the 1980s. How specific grievances (that can be addressed individually) can be translated into a general appeal for liberal democracy or anti-Communism is a logical puzzle.

Moreover, I'm very worried about the ugly nationalism that is rearing its head so frequently these days, combined with the relative gains China is making in international relations. The China Way is on the path to becoming the new American Dream; backed with propaganda, this is a powerful empirical and inductive argument for domestic consumption -- democracy has always failed, while authoritarianism/paternalism has succeeded before and is succeeding now.

it is very funny, you are guys always thought that people of China are all desire democracy and hope go against the govement if after they know some infromation of the Tibet or Tiananmen issues.

we have so many chinese student and people at oversseas(include me) had watched the video and read of a lot of about issue of Tibet or Tiananmen. we have 10 of 10 aggreed that this group of student is too stupide and foolish, the westen thought they are so hero. but for us they are so dogbear(狗熊）.

we are not going to praise them, they have to take the responsbite for all the die people, don't blame the China govement. don't use this to shell your crime. your heart is not for China good, it's for their embitions.

Face the truth, if the China govement open the information, i am scare most of us will protest the westen(and destroy your embassy,boycot your westen goods),for you westen guys will not save) you have to think positive way, it's good for you(stupide 学运领袖).

学运领袖, 请你们勇敢的承担责任， 摸摸你们的娘心，你们当时真的是为中国好， 还是为你们的野心。最后丢了夫人又折兵。现在反而把这种最栽赃到别人。学运领袖是当时在大学的一群耀武扬威流氓。

It is amazing after all the talk of merit of being a liberal democracy that western media cannot help to show their ultimate goal, the demise of CCP at all cost. Look at the price Russia paid experimenting with liberal democracy in the 90+. As I said repeatedly again and again, China should open up their political system to be accountable to their own people, not to Western Media. The space of reform should be sustainable in a long term without causing chaos. After observing the state of the city of Seattle during the world forum conference, a high-ranking official from China in a state of shock and amazement, asked, "Is this all what we can get from liberal democracy?" The city was in siege with smoke of burning tires and tear gas covering the entire downtown area. Business was closed and shop windows were smashed.

China marks Tiananmen Square with special Happy Meal toy: http://bit.ly/3mxTW

Don't be naive. As long as the PLA remains a CCP army, nothing will need to change. Chinese government will be secured for centuries with the PLA behind them.

We have no idea whether the students at TAM were acting for their own ambition or not. But we are very sure of what CCP is all about - staying in power at all cost, even cost of Chinese peoples' lives.

The nationalism in China is not ugly. It is a beautiful thing. It reminds me of Japan and Germany in the 1930's. The sense of being deprived, being mistreated by the rest of the world permeated throughout Japan and German then, as it is now in China. May be China can get North Korea as a sidekick, just like Italy did for Germany. It will be an instant replay.

happy meal toy !! yeah. And the website name says it all. China is stupid !!!

Much of the media in the United States and Great Britain continue to strongly criticize the Chinese leaders for not confronting the legacy of the tragic events in Beijing in early June, twenty years ago. From what I have read in books about recent Chinese history, most of the western media have had an overly simplistic understanding of what really happened. For example, the students, especially in the beginning, were demanding an end to corruption, nepotism and improvement in university living conditions more than calling for democracy. Deng's unfortunate decision to use the army to end the protests is considered by some historians to have been at least partly influenced by the persecution he endured at the hands of Red Guards and Mao during the Cultural Revolution. Deng, as most Americans misread the "lessons" of World War I, Munich and World War II, inaccurately associated the student demonstrators in Beijing with the disorder, chaos caused by thuggish Red Guards.

The leaders and often most people in many countries usually do not want to ackowledge wrongdoing by their governments in the recent past. The Obama administration seems determined to whitewash the human rights abuses and torture policies of the Bush-Cheney regime. The Nixon administration and most of the public tried to ignore reports of the My Lai massacre. The United States government has never come to terms with the tens of thousands of Vietnamese and Iraqi civilians killed as a result of its military actions.

Japanese leaders and most people there continue to deny the reality of Japanese atrocities in China, as well as other countries between the 1930's to 1945 that rival in scope the Holocaust. Chiang Kai-shek's military forces killed hundreds of demonstrators in Taiwan in February 1947. Thousands of leftists were imprisoned or killed afterward. This event was essentially a taboo subject in Taiwan for decades.

Therefore the reluctance among Chinese leaders to openly discuss, let alone ackowledge in retrospect any wrongdoing, during the events of June 1989 is hardly surprising. There has been since 1979 a limited acknowledgment in China of the suffering caused by the Cultural Revolution. Within ten to twenty years there may a similar beginning in China to allow some open discussion in the media, films, etc. about the events in Beijing twenty years ago.

An personal experience of an American:
When my students talk about June of 1989, and here in Beijing they do, I tell them that the US government would have done the same thing. I was in DC during the big Vietnam War demonstrations {Mobilizations]in 1968 and 1969. I remember when Nixon surrounded the White Houses with buses. I was sleeping on the mall with thousands of others when the Mall was cleared by the US military. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if demonstrators had refused to leave the mall or sought to attack the white house that US troops would have fired on demonstrators. Governments are always willing to kill to stay in control

Model of western human right: Australia.
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/blog/eyeonasia/archives/2009/06/in_australia_in.html?chan=globalbiz_asia+index+page_top+stories
Indian students are singled out for physical violence. Why didn't they attack Chinese students? It is because China is their biggest customers of commodities.
Go figure. Human right champions, Australians.
Go Australia go.

http://news.mingpao.com/20090604/gat3.htm
Here is a link to detail how the students left the square without shedding a drop of blood while shots were fired on the out-skirt.
Don't believe a word from the Western Media. On the out-skirt, riot broke out and soldiers were killed. Soldiers firing into the crowds, were fighting for their lives as well as taking control of the city. American government would have done the same thing if the White House or Capital Hill were attacked by rioters with guns.
Here is the excerpt:
廣場四君子」是指周舵、劉曉波、高新、侯德健4人，從1989年6月2日開始宣告絕食72小時，原來目的是要提倡和解、勸退學生。不料在6月3日傍晚軍隊開槍，雖然天安門廣場上仍較平靜，但在場學生已經準備以棍棒、汽油瓶等與軍隊抗爭，不願撤離。

天安門廣場與戒嚴部隊交涉

此時，周舵收到消息稱廣場「晚上要出大事」，眼見一場大型衝突在即，他便和侯德健擬去與戒嚴部隊談判。周舵回憶稱，當時廣場一片漆黑，一段往北約100多米的路，「我覺得簡直就是走向地獄之路，恐怖之極。」突然響起一片拉槍栓的聲音，然後就聽有聲音高喊「站住！不許再往前！再往前就開槍了！」二人喊道：「別開槍！我們是來談判的！我們是侯德健！趕緊把你們的指揮官叫出來，我們有非常重要的事兒！」

過了一會，一位名叫季新國的上校走近來，時任團政委，隸屬當時38軍的51048部隊，雙方一度發生爭執，周舵制止道「不能再吵了，現在時間已經非常緊迫了，我們來就是為了避免更多的流血。」季新國當即表態「我個人完全同意，但是我不能作主。你們幾位就在這兒，千萬別動。我馬上去請示指揮部。」

片刻後，季新國出來稱，「你們趕緊回去，指揮部已經同意了，給你們在東南角留了通道。你們趕快回去帶學生出去。」周當時拖侯德健跑回廣場，因為侯原來有胃病，加上絕食，已經十分虛弱。但廣場上的學生還在爭論，不願離開，周舵與侯德健就再次找到戒嚴部隊，請求推遲開進廣場的時間，對方表示軍令如山，不能更改，但季新國說，「你們要是真的能讓學生撤離廣場，那就真的是立了一大功！」幸而學生終肯陸續撤離，周邊的駐守官兵亦因收到指示，沒有開槍，但有學生撤退到較外圍時遭坦克壓死。

以上文字源自周舵《血腥的黎明》

No matter how you feel about the events of 1989, what the CCP did today is just plain stupid. Blocking information about the event and harassing people doesn't make history magically disappear. As a Chinese American who has more than once defended China, this is indefensible.

Being that the one-part rule is hard to change in a short time, the best way is engagement - All the activists should apply for a party membership. If 1 billion people join the CCP, then there will be true democracy! Haha...

[...] om 20-årsdagen här, här och [...]

6.4 will be becoming history just like CCP.

But, western social idealogies do not equal to democracy.

6.4 movents do not equal to democracy.

Head of 6.4 movents do not equal to democratic leader.

CCP do not equal to China.

Oppose CCP do not equal to love China.

Love CCP do not equal to hate democracy.

Democracy, if indeed is a good thing, should grow from within, not be imposed from outside.

Now, is democracy always a good thing without conditions?
I doubt it!
There is no such thing in the universe that can be assumed as being always good.
If time and space are relative, as Albert Einstein pointed out a century ago, how can democracy, a political system originated from the western culture, be assumed as a universal value?

尤其是那个才琳。她是最固执，最狂妄的一个。其实跟她一帮的很多学生都叫不要在闹下去了。只有她和她同居的男朋友要坚持下去。最后弄到他们自己都有分针。

那个才琳，现在有脸出来喊话，叫政府承认错误。可笑。你现在生意做大了。就有想在狂妄一次吗？

这个才琳应该负一部分有责任。出来道歉。

Let's assume democracy has been relatively sucessful within the territories of the west (one may challenge that when it comes to things such as global warming; it appears that in addressing things that may require long term view as opposed to short term gain democracy becomes less productive if not entirely counterproductive. Let's face it, we human beings are by nature selfish and short sighted).

Then let's look around and see if there are any other successful stories out side of the territories of the west.

India, for example, is claimed to be the largest democracy in the world. How are things there? One month to complete an election that killed hundreds of people? How does that compare to the June 4 thing 20 years ago in terms of loss of human life?

South Korea, recently has a tragety around its former President.

Taiwan, scandal around the corrupted former President is still under investigation.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying democracy is a bad thing.
But I think many people, including those who run the western media, have too simplistic a thinking when it comes to democracy.
And unfortunately democracy, in the words of many, including medias such as BBC, has been simplified as running election (that's why they claimed India was the largest democracy in the world, and Pakistan was one of the largest democracies because both countries had establised a system of election).
Democracy = election?
True of false?
WHAT IS DEMOCRACY?
What about a "democracy" without election?

... the legions of internet censors, sleeplessly trawling the internet for mentions of Tibet or Tiananmen...
Don't get too worried about the censors, Mr Fitzpatrick. Methinks they are working in shifts.

We must thank the CCP for their very subtle way to remind people of May 35, the year 78 of the Republic of China. Chinese born in the last 20 years would not have noticed the anniversary of a non-event. By blocking the web they crave, CCP succeeded in making these young Chinese at least curious about what is going on. By asking questions and getting nonsense answers, they would understand.

Democracy is a bad thing, for sure. It is not for those who don't like it, and won't make an effort for it. It is very discriminating. It is even racist. Some races are just not able to handle such form of government and will sure make a mess of it.

So, China, don't even think of trying for democracy, human rights, etc. You may hurt yourself doing it. Like the warning on TV: Don't try this at home. The performers here are all trained professionals.

[...] Time China blog [...]

Why it is NOT "A Long, Slow Endgame"? Try finding answers from some rational analysis:

From New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/07/sports/olympics/07nationalism.html

From Newsweek:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/178810